Defunding police departments is a major goal for many Black Lives Matter protesters. But for others, it’s a scary idea — and that’s true for many St. Louis residents. In this episode, we explore what it means to defund the police in a city that struggles with high rates of violent crime. Criminologist Richard Rosenfeld joins the discussion, as well as California-based reporter Abené Clayton. Clayton talks about what’s behind a big drop in violent crime in Oakland and what St. Louis can learn from the West Coast city’s experience.